JONES DAY TALKS®: Perspectives and Pathways Conference Delivers Career Guidance to Top Law School Talent

Dave Dalton:

In a profession that's so very competitive and attracts the best and brightest year after year, Jones Day's Perspectives and Pathways Conference for first year law students remains, nearly a decade after its launch, an industry standard for providing practical information and training and preparing students for a meaningful career path after law school. Two Jones Day partners who recently participated at the conference in Atlanta and an associate who attended Perspectives and Pathways as a first year law student just three years ago are here to talk about what was learned, what was shared, and what today's law students and future leaders in the profession need to know. I'm Dave Dalton. You're listening to JONES DAY TALKS®.

Justin McKithen practices in the areas of capital markets and general corporate law. His experience includes public offerings and private placements of debt and equity securities, initial public offerings, special purpose acquisition company transactions, tender offers, exchange offers, and other corporate transactions. And pertinent to today's conversation, Justin also mentors law school students through the Leadership Council on Legal Diversity and the University of Georgia School of Law's alumni and professional mentorship program.

Jones Day partner Caitlin Cahow's practice focuses on business restructuring and reorganization. She advises clients in Chapter 11 proceedings, including complex bankruptcy litigation and mass tort matters. And I got to tell you, as an avid hockey fan, I have to add that Caitlin is a two-time Olympic medalist in women's ice hockey. In 2014, she was selected by President Obama to the presidential delegation to the 2014 Winter Olympic Games. She was later appointed to the President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition.

And Katherine Slivensky joined Jones Day's new lawyers group in 2025. Before attending law school, Katherine worked as a policy analyst of the Department of Energy Nuclear Physics Laboratory and later joined the compliance team of a Fortune 500 financial services firm where she focused on regulatory strategy and organizational risk management.

Justin, Caitlin, Katherine, thanks so much for being with us today. Jones Day just finished hosting its 9th Perspectives and Pathways 1L Conference. This is an annual event. The people in the firm look forward to and it's kind of taken on critical mass, if you will, gets bigger and better. It brings together lawyers, clients, associates, and first year law students from top-tier law schools across the country. They talk about networking, skill building. They hear presentations, they participate in round table forums, but that's brochure-level stuff. Justin, if you will, give us a high level description of Perspectives and Pathways, what it's intended to do, why you think it's been successful, and why the firm invests these resources in it.

Justin McKithen:

Yeah. Thanks, Dave. The Perspectives and Pathways Conference is just a tremendous opportunity to bring such a wealth and collection of talent of 1L students around the country and really showing them, "Hey, there's a lot of different ways to be successful in this career." We've got folks who have done clerkships. We've got folks who've gone straight through. We've got so many different ways and clients come in and offer these similar perspectives. And this is their most formative year of their law school career. And we're really trying to show them and open their eyes to what's in store for them going forward. And one of the most impactful things about the conference really isn't the opportunity to hear from us as lawyers. It's their opportunity to meet other fellow students as well who are going through the same challenges that they are.

Dave Dalton:

Now, that's interesting because it's Jones Day, right? But you've got, I guess we had 60, about five dozen students this year, 1Ls, and they get to meet each other and they're interacting. And these are going to be peers, colleagues maybe at some point. Talk about that in terms of that informal interaction and who they're meeting and you're kind of going through the same situations together. Talk about how valuable that can be.

Justin McKithen:

Yeah. One of the great things about the event was we had an opening reception where we really got to be informal, get to meet everybody that was there and talk to them. And one of the messages that I was trying to make sure I imparted upon everyone that I spoke to, I said was, "You're surrounded here by the future stars of the industry. These are going to be your colleagues, they're going to be star associates, these are going to be future partners, future general counsels, judges, you name it, that's going to run the gamut here. And you got an opportunity here to make lasting relationships with them." And everyone really took that to heart and I love to see the connections that they were making over the course of the weekend.

Dave Dalton:

I've never been. I keep bugging Yvette and Claudia to let me go one year to kind of watch and observe and take good notes. I sense there's so much great energy in that room over that day and a half and that weekend. Would you concur, Justin, people meeting each other? And we'll talk to Caitlin and Katherine in a second, but the Jones Day lawyers love being there too. And a lot of conferences have a kind of like a neutral, "Yeah, we're here because we're here and we got to be here," whatever. This is different, isn't it, Justin?

Justin McKithen:

Yeah, it's a hot ticket at the firm. It's a tremendous opportunity to be invited and to be able to speak to these students here. It's something that we take very seriously and we pride ourselves on our ability to do. And the students feel that. The lawyers feel that. You look at not just the folks in Atlanta, obviously we are very fortunate to be able to host, but we bring in folks from around the firm, around the country for this opportunity. And we wouldn't be doing that if we didn't really take this seriously and know that it meant a lot to us. And the students really feel that same.

Dave Dalton:

For sure. And I'm looking, I've got a copy of the conference agenda right here in front of me. Caitlin, about 9 or 10 different separate programs, whether it was a presentation or roundtable discussion or wherever it was. And this was practical stuff, writing tips, oral advocacy, negotiations. Caitlin, at a high level or overall, what'd you think about the agenda and the information available to the attendees?

Caitlin Cahow:

The agenda is great. The key word there is practical. You learn a whole lot in law school, most important of which is learning how to think like a lawyer, but there's a lot that you don't learn in law school. And when you get into practice, there's a lot that you need to learn on your feet while you're just developing in your career. So really what this agenda is designed to do is to give some practical tips to law students about what your practice is going to look like on a day-to-day basis. And frankly, you're learning about that from some of the best to do it. So it's a pretty good inside track on what life might look like as a lawyer, what it might look like for you on a day-to-day basis, and really trying to give these students a leg up as they embark upon practice, leaving that law school environment.

Dave Dalton:

As a law student, especially as a 1L, man, you're in the library all the time and you've got your face down in a book and you're working and you're writing and you're learning and you're reading, but these practical real-world things are going to come up maybe sooner than anybody anticipates. It's good to hear from, as you say, established players in the field in terms of here are things that are important in terms of getting your career going on a fast track at the right time.

Caitlin Cahow:

Yeah. And one of the things I love most about the agenda is that the programming really challenges the students to interact with one another and to interact with the lawyers and clients that are presenting at the program. We're asking you to get up on your feet. We're asking you to introduce yourself to someone new. Just as Justin mentioned, it's an incredible networking opportunity. So we are networking and learning in real time, getting on your feet experience, learning how to meet and get to know new people, skills that'll serve you well beyond just the program or just the weekend.

Dave Dalton:

Absolutely. Part of the reason the firm continues to invest and schedule this every year, and it's a bonafide hit, that's for sure. Let's swing to Katherine for a second. About 60 1Ls were there. I think the official number was 59 in case there were any lawyers in the room. It wasn't 60, it was 59. It was close to 60, about 60, maybe nearly 60. In any case, what were your impressions of the group?

Katherine Slivensky:

Yeah, it was a very energetic bunch that Caitlin mentioned a little bit about meeting each other and the programming, challenging them to do that, but I feel like they were curious about each other from the beginning. Justin, during the cocktail the first night, encouraged everyone to really be reaching out and talking to each other, but they were naturally curious about each other's histories and not just meeting attorneys, but also meeting each other. They were very engaged too. No panel or a part of the programming had a shortage of questions. And even when that wrapped up, they were eager to approach different attorneys and follow up with some questions. It was a lot of programming for a day and a half, and they still looked like they had a lot of rest, which probably they did not, but they were very much still keeping the energy high and a bright bunch, for sure.

Dave Dalton:

And you're doing something right when the hands shoot up at the end of a presentation or you see that informal interaction in the hallway or they're finding the lawyer that they heard talking just previously, you're pushing the right buttons and you're giving them the content they want and they want to know more. It goes back to maybe the program itself has figured out here's what they need, here's what they want to hear.

Caitlin Cahow:

No, I was going to say, my sense is having participated in this program for a number of years now, that the student activation and the student enthusiasm gets better and better every single year. So to me, it feels like there's a buzz across the various law schools from students who have participated in the past reporting back positive experiences because I've just noticed that the students year over year keep getting more enthusiastic and are more excited to participate than even in years before. The program, just in my view, continues to get better.

Dave Dalton:

Is it big enough, Caitlin? I'm wondering, there's so much enthusiasm. It's going so well. It seems like this is getting big and could be bigger. The feedback's been terrific.

Caitlin Cahow:

It'd be interesting to hear what Katherine and Justin have to say about it. Sure. There's a lot of enthusiasm for the program and certainly Jones Day lawyers and clients love to participate. There's also something to be said too of keeping it a manageable number so that you get the benefits of really getting to know the other people in the room. It's pretty special. It's a pretty great room to be in.

Dave Dalton:

Good point.

Caitlin Cahow:

And so I do think that there is something to be said for the ability to have interpersonal interactions with most of the other people at the event.

Dave Dalton:

You know who knows about that? Katherine. Because Katherine attended this event years ago as a 1L.

Katherine Slivensky:

Yes.

Dave Dalton:

Talk about that. How did it feel coming back as a Jones Day associate?

Katherine Slivensky:

So not that many years ago, just three, which made it feel a little surreal, to be honest. And I agree with Caitlin to the extent that coming into this event can feel very intimidating. You're at a law firm, seeing the inside of a law firm probably for the first time. So keeping it sometimes at a manageable number makes it feel a little bit less intimidating, a little bit more approachable, and allows you to ease into yourself and participating as yourself in the most natural way without that kind of pressure. So yeah, it felt surreal. Justin mentioned your future colleagues might be in that room. And for me, that was absolutely the case. In fact, I was sharing the panel with Julia from the Atlanta office and we actually met at the Perspective and Pathways conference as 1Ls. I also met Jasmine, who's now in Chicago with me as an NLG.

So it really felt a little bit like a homecoming, also seeing Yvette and Shalithia. It felt really nice to be on the other side of the coin, but it also was a good reminder that you don't need to be that far ahead in your career to serve the ones that are just the few steps behind you, that sometimes you are probably in a better position to remember what it felt like walking into that room as a 1L. So I try to channel a little bit of that and make it so all the conversations and interactions that I was having, I kept in mind, this must be really hard and intimidating for them to even approach me in the first place. So to ease that and to make sure that I was present in all the conversations that my phone wasn't buzzing or I didn't make them feel like at all like they were an inconvenience to me.

And I tried to go out of my way to make sure that they knew that, that the time was theirs and that we were there to really answer their questions and engage with them. So I try to channel a little bit of that, but it absolutely felt surreal. It was an honor too when I was invited. So I was super excited to be there.

Dave Dalton:

What was the conference when you attended, was that Dallas? I can't remember.

Katherine Slivensky:

Dallas.

Dave Dalton:

It was Dallas. Okay.

Katherine Slivensky:

Yes, it was.

Dave Dalton:

Right. Okay. Did you imagine at the time when you were there as a 1L attending, thought this would be great? Or were you even thinking that far ahead at that point?

Katherine Slivensky:

No, that just felt so far away in my career for me. And I thought that you had to be such an established attorney to even be in front of 1Ls in the first place. And I had accepted my offer to come as a 1L summer associate, but the idea of being there as an attorney just felt absolutely farfetched and just being there in the first place as a 1L felt like a tremendous honor and opportunity. I couldn't fathom thinking that much farther ahead.

Dave Dalton:

There's a lesson there, that's for sure. You just never know. Justin, I was looking over the Jones Day lawyers who attended the event. This is high profile. These are established, successful, accomplished lawyers, practice leaders, firm-wide inclusion partner, hiring partners, and so forth. A lot of lawyers from Atlanta. Talk about the value of a law student, a 1L, meeting people who are 6, 10, 15 years down the road of where they want to be. Just by osmosis, there's got to be something great to come just from being around accomplished people like that.

Justin McKithen:

Yeah. You hit the nail right on the head, right? I mean, the roster of folks that we had attending this conference was pretty impressive. And I never really stopped to think about how being in the shoes of a student, how, to Katherine's point, that could have been intimidating. But one of the things about our lawyers that I've always felt from the time that I was a summer associate at Jones Day is that our lawyers are just very down to earth, genuine people. So I would hope that none of them actually felt that level of intimidation or any kind of fear factor when they were liaising with us and meeting with us and talking with us through over the course of the weekend because I never felt that way. And I would like to believe that now that we're in the other side of that table, we're exuding the same things.

But the opportunity to meet these folks and get a chance to see that, hey, this is what this looks like. It's tangible. It's one thing to see folks on the website and see their different credentials and accolades that they've accomplished over the course of their career, but to meet them in person and learn a little bit more about them as people is really impactful because you start to see a little bit of yourself in people as well. You see that we've got things in common, whether it's we're from the same city or we went to the same law school, we like the same TV shows, what have you. That kind of connection was something that we were fostering over the course of the weekend and we'll continue to pay dividends as we build relationships with these students going forward.

Dave Dalton:

And Justin, this is a firm that does nurture and mentor its up and coming talent, the next generation, if you will. The 1L conference, Perspectives and Pathways, probably displays that better than almost anything else the firm does. And we talk about mentoring informal and structured once associates land here, but to give 1Ls, people who still have two more years of law school in front of them and who knows what else, access to these high profile lawyers that are succeeding, this is a great thing for a law student.

Justin McKithen:

Yeah, I agree. You mentioned the term mentoring. Mentoring, a lot of times I feel like people view it as a one-way street. The mentor does the work, they pour into the mentee, but I'm always wary of making sure people realize it's a two-way street, right? Mentees can have just as much to offer and to teach mentors as the other way around. And it's what you make it. If you aren't, I guess, proactive, you'll miss a lot of opportunities. If you're too reliant on a formal structured mentor programs that you see around, you'll miss out on a lot of opportunities to build connections with people who actually might have a lot to offer to you. And so building those connections, meeting those folks over the weekend, I hope folks had a chance to make some of those as well.

Dave Dalton:

We should do another program on mentoring at some point. I've heard similar takes to yours and it's so true. I keep hearing people say that it's what you make and you got to raise your hand and get around the right people and nurture that kind of relationship. Let's talk about the programs from that weekend themselves. Justin, you moderated a panel on networking and relationships. So important, especially for a young lawyer. Talk about what that discussion focused on.

Justin McKithen:

I was glad that we focused on networking relationships during this point at the conference because it is really the crux of our career. When I was a 1L, I didn't really appreciate how much networking was going to be a part of your success going forward. I was so focused on the books. You mentioned earlier, being in the law library with your head in the book, I was all about that. But having these 1Ls realize that even right now, they can start building those foundations that are going to serve them well going forward in their career. That was important. Networking too often is viewed as a step-up type of thing, right? Networking up. If I'm an associate, I want to be networking with the partners. If I'm a 1L, I want to be networking with practicing attorneys. Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, lateral networking connection is just as important because you have to grow with people throughout the course of your career.

It's not just the folks who are already in established positions who are going to be able to do things for you. Those students had just as much of an ask of them, "Hey, what can you do for other people in this room?" It's not all about what can be done for you. What can you do for other people? One of our former managing partners had a huge saying. It was, "Who's here because you're here?" That's important to think about what can you be doing to help others in just the same sense that people can be helping you.

Dave Dalton:

That is such great insight. Do law students get that necessarily, or is that something on your panel as you talk about that's like, "Hey, look around. These people are going to be your peers, your colleagues," whatever. Did they know that or is that something that's like you tell them and the light bulb goes on it's like, "He's right. He's right. These people-"

Justin McKithen:

I hope it was a light bulb because it's easy to be in the moment and thinking about, again, what can I get out of this as opposed to thinking about what people can be getting from you as well.

Dave Dalton:

Everyone talks about networking, networking, networking. And it's so important in any career path, but certainly in the law. Are there specific tips that maybe you brought out during the panel discussion, things, tangible things that a 1L or any law student could be doing right now?

Justin McKithen:

I'd encourage the students to be bold in their efforts to reach out to practicing lawyers. Coming out of the COVID era and everything, we got really comfortable with Zoom calls and Teams calls. I said, lawyers would love to actually have someone reach out to them and say, "Hey, do you want to meet for lunch? You want to go for a coffee? You want to sit down and have some face-to-face interpersonal touchpoints and dynamics?" I said, "Be bold and ask for those things because those are where the best connections that can be made." I encouraged them not to get discouraged if they actually reached out and didn't hear from someone right away.

I'll admit, I've been on the receiving end of some outreach sometimes and get a little tied up or a little busy with some things, but then it's been the students who were intentional about following up, who I said sometimes, "I'm so glad you followed up because I had every intention of getting back to you and I just got tied up with something, but now that you have followed up, yeah, let's make that connection happen. Let's make that lunch happen." And I was able to meet some of those students at this conference again who I'd met in the past because they've done that. They've been that intentional.

Dave Dalton:

If someone listening takes nothing else from this conversation, that might be the biggest takeaway. Follow up. Be bold as you say. So over to Caitlin. Caitlin, your panel focused on clerkships. And you had a clerkship after law school with the US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Illinois, if I'm correct. So you brought valuable experience to that forum. What did you hope that the attendees would hear about clerkship opportunities and why those might be valuable?

Caitlin Cahow:

What I hope the students took from the clerkship panel is that clerking is a great option and there are lots of ways to do it. It's not the only option out there, but it is something that will offer you insight into the mind of a judge. I learned a lot from my clerkship, so I tried to provide some of those lessons that I learned for me, things like attention to detail, my writing style. All of those things improved when I was a clerk. And so that may be something that's very valuable for someone to take on, but there are also lots of different ways to clerk. So we talked a little bit about the fact that Jones Day is very fortunate and pretty extraordinary in that we have so many really high level clerks, Supreme Court clerks, circuit court clerks, district court clerks. We're really, really fortunate to have so many talented folks who've had those experiences, but there are lots of different clerking opportunities, whether it's at the state court, whether it's at some type of specialty court.

And so we really tried to open up the floor to those types of discussions and really give the students a sense of it doesn't have to just be one way, but there are certain steps that you have to follow in order to segue into a clerkship. So how can we help you think through some of those now so that you're better prepared if clerking is something that you want to do in the future?

Dave Dalton:

Now, Katherine, now your panel, I'm going to read this so I don't mess this up. "Navigating law firm life/bringing your authentic self to work." That sounds important and ambitious. What did that discussion cover?

Katherine Slivensky:

Yeah, we had a lot to cover, but we were thankfully coordinated and supported by Alex Murphy. He made sure that we planned a little bit ahead of time and knew what we were covering. So we talked about a variety of things, but I think the biggest topic was the transition between being a student and now being an associate and anything that touches that transition. So we talked about how do you stay true to yourself in this very different environment? What are some of the considerations that folks had when choosing a big law career? What were some of the common feelings and issues and challenges that folks navigated? And a lot of it was just this adaptation is also a process where you have to give yourself a little bit of grace and learn from the folks around you, but at the same time, not forget your roots and where you came from and what can serve you well in this new environment.

One of the examples and stories that I gave was meeting Julia at the conference and we spoke at length, we exchanged contact information, but it wasn't until the last day of our summer academy, so a year later, that we ran into each other again and realized that we were both from Brazil and we started speaking in Portuguese, but we were so locked into that mindset of I'm in a professional environment, I will talk only about the professional different topics about my schools, about my career goals, about my experiences between law school and undergrad.

And we kind of forgot to talk about ourselves, truly. So one of the things that I encouraged folks to do is to really get to know each other on a personal real level and finding those connections that Justin was talking about that go beyond the scripted way of engaging in networking events or events in the legal field.

Dave Dalton:

What were they most concerned about during the question period? I was going to ask you about work-life balance. You talk about a cliché, work-life balance, but what do they worry about in terms of transitioning from law school to being an associate, whether it's a big firm or small firm in between Goldilocks perfect size firm? What's concerning them?

Katherine Slivensky:

One of the questions that stuck with me was, how is it different from law school? What are some of the things that you wish you knew? Those are kind of general questions, but the way that that student asked it was, what are the things that don't serve you anymore going into your professional career from law school? And one of the things that we talked about was time management versus time agility, which I like to call it. In law school, you get really good at managing your time and scripting it out just so. What are you going to do at what day, at what time? But you have so much control over it that it works that way.

When you're in practice and certainly when you're a first year associate, you don't really manage your time. Other people manage your time and you adjust accordingly. There's a lot of having to adapt in real time and understand and reprioritize. So being able to stay on your toes and building in time for things might change and having that flexibility day to day and being okay with that is one of the biggest transitions. And the other thing that we mentioned was the study of law is a solo journey, but the practice of law is a team sport.

So having that mentality of working with people in teams in a group project setting, whereas in law school you were head in the books and it was just you and your outline. And that transition also is one that takes a little bit of adapting to. For a lot of people, it's a very big and welcoming transition. I love working with people and enjoy being in big teams, but for others that may not be the case and adjusting a little bit to that is crucial to be able to be successful in this environment.

Dave Dalton:

Do you miss law school, Katherine?

Katherine Slivensky:

I do.

Dave Dalton:

Yeah. Yeah? Justin's laughing. Caitlin's laughing. "No, she doesn't."

Justin McKithen:

No.

Caitlin Cahow:

I don't.

Katherine Slivensky:

I jokingly, I just had a professor email me, I kid you not, yesterday, his article that's about to be published and I just devoured it. I do miss it in a way, but I think that at heart I just love learning and that's what I miss about law school was a dedicated learning experience. But here I also, in practice, you also carve out those times to do that. And everything is a learning experience as well. So I just missed that.

Dave Dalton:

All right. Sorry. I went way off the outline there, but you were talking. I thought I got to ask her. That was great.

Caitlin Cahow:

Katherine, that was awesome though, by the way. Those insights were awesome.

Dave Dalton:

No doubt.

Caitlin Cahow:

Appreciated those.

Katherine Slivensky:

Thank you.

Justin McKithen:

I love that story about Julia.

Caitlin Cahow:

Yeah, me too.

Dave Dalton:

This is great stuff. This is great stuff. You all three have been so generous with your time. A couple more questions and we'll get out of here, but thanks so much. Justin, looking back, the conference was about three weeks ago. Let's talk about what you heard from attendees in terms of what they liked.

Justin McKithen:

The response that I've heard was just overwhelmingly positive, just so appreciative of the opportunity. This was an all expenses paid trip for these students to come down here and meet us as lawyers and meet other students from around the country, other talented law schools. And so to have that chance to be around some of the other like-minded, talented, driven individuals, I think that was so much of the reward for them over that course of that weekend. And so coming out of it and going back to their respective law schools, they're going back to their towns, they're recharged, they're motivated. They see what it takes to get here and they want to go out and make sure they do everything that they can to get into these shoes. They all recognized what was in front of them and they were excited about that opportunity.

Dave Dalton:

Well, yeah. And you just hit on something good because law schools are grind. Everybody knows that, even those of us who've never been. But at the end of your one year, towards the end of it, you say you got recharge, re-energized. Here's why I'm doing this. I'm meeting people who are making this make sense. It's great and so forth. I was going to go back to Caitlin for a second. You and I talked a couple weeks ago on a different project and we're talking about Perspectives and Pathways and you said every year you can, you said you want to be involved and be part of this and sit on a panel and network with these young law students. Why is that? What's good for you?

Caitlin Cahow:

I would love to be involved with Perspectives and Pathways every year moving forward if I'm asked. To be quite honest, the reason is the people in the room. When it comes to the students, the energy, the enthusiasm, these students are fired up about the law. They're fired up about their future and they want to learn and they want to meet you and they want to interact. And the room is buzzing when you're around these students. They're so enthusiastic. And there are people in that room for whom the law was not the obvious or easy path. And it's an excellent reminder as a practicing attorney just how fortunate we are to have the opportunities that we have and how we should never take them for granted. I get inspired every single time I'm in the room with those students, but it's not just the students, right?

It's also the Jones Day folks and clients who are there. I mean, these are some of my favorite people to be around because they're just good people who are very good at their jobs, who are willing and eager to impart upon the next generation the knowledge that they have to offer. And that's a pretty special group to be a part of. So to me, it's an honor and something that I hope to do for many years in the future.

Dave Dalton:

Well stated. Thanks. You just nailed that. Let's end with Katherine. Katherine, let's say, and you were there recently, literally recently as a 1L at Perspectives and Pathways, you run into a 1L from a good law school and she or he is thinking about, "I've heard about Perspectives and Pathways. There's good buzz around the event. I'm thinking about applying." What would you tell that person?

Katherine Slivensky:

I would tell them to cultivate their why. We were asked to help in reading some of the applications and some of the ones that stuck most with me were folks that articulated how it is that they got to law school in the first place, but also what kept them going. Why were they interested in the law to start with? Why are they getting through law school? What is it that moves them? And for some people, it might be a cause, like a social cause that they might be interested in. That wasn't necessarily my case. My why was more of practicing at a high level where I was being challenged to working with people that I admired and would try to learn and get experience from osmosis just by being around them and being involved in the kind of high level projects. But if you can cultivate your why and articulate it, I think that's a really good starting point.

And for a lot of people, it might change. Like you had a cause or you had some purpose and you learned about different opportunities like clerking and that might change. And that's totally fine. And we all understand that. We don't want someone to come in with their five-year plan and make that their application. We want someone who is in touch with who they are and who they want to be as an attorney. And that kind of common thread that sheds a little bit of a light in showing us what type of lawyer they're going to be.

Dave Dalton:

Good stuff. What great practical information for people applying for 2027. That was terrific. Let's leave this right here. Katherine, Caitlin, Justin, thanks so much for your time today. Let's do this again. In fact, let's do it in about a year. We'll talk about how Perspectives and Path-

Caitlin Cahow:

Sounds good, Dave.

Dave Dalton:

Right? Anyway, hey, thanks so much. You guys were great. We'll talk again soon.

Justin McKithen:

Thank you.

Caitlin Cahow:

Thanks, everyone.

Dave Dalton:

Take care.

Katherine Slivensky:

Bye.

Dave Dalton:

Bye.

For information on perspectives and pathways for 2027, visit jonesday.com. And while you're there, you'll also find contact information for Justin, Caitlin, and Katherine. Subscribe to JONES DAY TALKS® at Apple Podcasts or wherever else you find your podcast programming. JONES DAY TALKS® is produced flawlessly by Tom Kondilas. As always, we thank you for listening. I'm Dave Dalton. We'll talk to you next time.

Speaker 5:

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